DM ([info]dmmaus) wrote,
@ 2005-12-04 09:07:00
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Pope to change D&D cosmology
Vatican City (Reuters): The Pope is set to abolish the concept of Limbo, overturning a belief held by Dungeons & Dragons players since Gary Gygax first described the cosmology of the game in the Players Handbook in 1978.

Limbo has long been held by the Catholic Church to be the place where the souls of children go if they die before they can be baptised, as well as the source of the chaotic neutral alignment and home of the Slaadi. However, a 30-strong international commission of theologians summoned by the late John Paul II last year to come up with a "more coherent and illuminating" doctrine in tune with the modern age is to present its findings to Pope Benedict XVI on Friday.

Vatican sources said yesterday that the commission would recommend that Limbo be replaced by the more "compassionate" doctrine that all children who die do so "in the hope of eternal salvation", rather than the traditionally held belief that their souls suffer eternal deprivations at the hands of the Slaadi and their demented lords Ssendam and Ygorl.

What this change in theology will do for the millions of Dungeons & Dragons players across the world is not yet clear. Randy Thomson, a Dungeon Master of 23 years from Buffalo, New York, is livid. "The Pope has no authority to mess with the cosmology of our beloved multiverse!" Thomson ranted, between gulps of cola. "This will be like Second Edition all over again, when they tried to take away our demons and devils. If it's a schism the Pope wants, it's a schism he'll get!"

But not all players of the game are so enraged. Lisle Sheffield, a player for 14 years from Tucson, Arizona, said, "Frankly, I'm pleased with this move. The planar cosmology was a straitjacket imposed by the medieval-style beliefs of roleplayers from the 1970s, who saw the need for a way to restrain the actions of characters within a rigid alignment system. In these enlightened times, such measures are not necessary, as modern secular humanism encourages accountability for actions within the moral framework of the D&D setting without the need for rules. I see the abolition of Limbo as the first step towards a more open and honest roleplaying system."

These arguments don't go down well with Timmy Livingstone, a 14-year-old from Sacramento, Caifornia, who discovered the game with his friends last summer. "The Pope can't take away Limbo! Who does he think he is! My 78th level half-elf-half-dwarf paladin-ranger-barbarian just got a +23 sword of Slaad-slaying, and was going to go to Limbo and kill Ygorl and take over the whole plane! How's he going to do that now? He might have to take over the Seven Heavens instead! Let's see how the Pope likes that!"

The Vatican has so far declined to comment on the reactions of the faithful D&D players of the world.

(Paraphrased from http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1897480,00.html)




(46 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]thatcatgirl
2005-12-04 04:11 am UTC (link)
lol.

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[info]glenbarnett
2005-12-04 05:14 am UTC (link)

Excellent work.

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[info]kergillian
2005-12-04 08:39 am UTC (link)
What next?
Are they going to consolidate Hell and the Abyss?

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Limbo
[info]zargon
2005-12-04 07:05 pm UTC (link)
So apparently, Limbo is 'the permanent home in the afterlife of “the unbaptised who die in infancy without having been freed from original sin”'.

So Christians think that even before you are born you are a f'up and destined for hell? Ouch!

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Re: Limbo
[info]glenbarnett
2005-12-05 04:29 am UTC (link)

Well, yes. And Ouch.

But right now Limbo is... well, in Limbo, I guess.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Limbo
[info]zargon
2005-12-06 10:19 pm UTC (link)
Hmm, that's a point. If they get rid of Limbo, what's going to happen to all the cool catch-phrases that reference it, not to mention weird dance crazes for people that are just too darned drunk to dance upright?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Limbo
(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 12:39 am UTC (link)
"So Christians think that even before you are born you are a f'up and destined for hell? Ouch!"

Not exactly. And, of course, the pope only speaks for Roman Catholics, not Orthodox or Protestants.

Scripturally, the entire concept of limbo or any "in-between" state is completely made from whole cloth.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Limbo
(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 12:50 am UTC (link)
Five-points Calvinists don't believe in Limbo. Pretty sure Armeneans don't either, but can't speak for them.

And strictly speaking, Catholics don't believe in Original Sin. Something similar, but not actual, 5-Points Original Sin.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Limbo
(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 04:13 am UTC (link)
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

CCC 389 The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the "reverse side" of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Limbo
(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 04:18 pm UTC (link)
Good call. Chrsitians try to believe what the bible says (All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god) while the Catholics try to believe whatever the pope tells them instead. Very different religions, but both also have the concept of an age of accountability where your mental maturity reaches a point that you are held responsible for your sins. Before that point, it's assumed you don't understand the concept of repentence or the need for it and entry into heaven is gauranteed. This is of course, all conjecture, except for some new testament passages that can be interpreted to mean that you will not be held accountable if you were not made aware of the salvation available through Jesus. You could take this all to a very technical end and start justifying every little nuance and indeed some people do. Christians try the faith idea believing God knows what he's doing so it will all work out. Catholics try to overrule the bible with papal sanctions eliminating the need to justify any nuances at all and sometimes eliminating the need for faith. It's rather interesting! Really!!

But hey, good work on this article. I found it hilarious. I'll probably get fired for goofing off on the job now, but it was worth it. I'll probably have to start an adventure Limbo just because of this.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Limbo
(Anonymous)
2005-12-08 08:01 pm UTC (link)
"Chrsitians try to believe what the bible says"

Ask yourself how could the first Christians turn to the Bible if the canon of Scripture was not completed until 100A.D. nearly 70 years after Our Blessed Lord's Ascension?

And if you and I disagree on a matter of faith and morals who is the final authority?

Because the Bible says if you have a dispute "take it to the Church" (Matt. 18:17) because "the Church is the pillar and bulwark of Truth" (1 Tim 3:15) with the authority to "bind and loose" (Matt 18:18) it even makes God's wisdom known to the angels! (Eph. 3:10) When Our Blessed Lord sent the seventy out He sent them out with His authority. (Luke 10:16) On the road to Damascus Saul heard Lord's voice ask him "Saul why do you perscute Me?" (Acts 9:4). Saul was laying waste the Chuch (Acts 8:3) the Mystical Body of Christ (Eph. 5:29-32) Our Blessed Lord said to "seek first His kingdom" (Matt. 6:33) and then gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter alone and promised nothing would prevail against His Church (Matt. 16:18-19)

The Church founded by Our Blessed Lord gave us the Sacred Scriptures and Traditions that are the Word of God.

J+M+J

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Re: Limbo
(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 04:46 pm UTC (link)

I thought it was Augustine who said that Original Sin is not an actual personal fault in the individual but rather a state of disgrace, a separation from God, a wound in nature ... that the Adam's fault was his own but we share in the consequences; and I thought it was Calvin who said that Augustine was wrong insofar as Adam's fault is properly our own.

... wouldn't that make "5-point Original Sin" (I think you mean Total Depravity) a newer concept in Christian theology?

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Re: Limbo
(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 07:31 pm UTC (link)
Yes, but the point I was trying to make was that there is a distinction between Catholic and Calvinist thought, hence the locution "5-Points Original Sin."

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Limbo
(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 07:37 pm UTC (link)
I guess I should clarify altogether then:

Not all Christians believe that you are "f'ed up" before birth. Among at least one sect of those who do (Calvinists) they do not believe in Limbo. Calvinists have a doctrine of Grace and Predestination which covers children (drawn from David's Psalms and the Book of Revelations and a handful of the prophets).

Catholics were concerned with baptism (one of the original uses of C-Sections were to get to the baby before it died for this). Babies who died before being baptised were not under the grace of God, but were too young for damnation, and so the doctrine of Limbo arose. I also understand that this doctrine was and is frequently ignored, so the Pope is probably not doing anything more than codifying what already exists.

On the actual thread, though, very funny. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]robertprior
2005-12-05 02:29 am UTC (link)
Score the keyboard kill...

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[info]notthebuddha
2005-12-05 07:43 am UTC (link)
Of course, Vatican II deprecated Limbo a decade before D&D was published....

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[info]bfudlmint
2005-12-05 01:03 pm UTC (link)
I have been searching through all my books. Who is "The Pope"? I can't find any reference to him in Deities and Demigods, planescape, DMG, Players handbook, or any other source.

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Sourcebook for "The Pope".
[info]jonathan71
2005-12-08 06:07 pm UTC (link)
Look on page 1756 of the 'IRL Handbook'. It's the book that gamers should never be without.

Seriously, very funny.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

LOL
(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 12:20 am UTC (link)
This is great!

Steve

Speculative Catholic
http://www.speculativecatholic.com

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This is hilarious!
[info]msg1138
2005-12-07 01:46 am UTC (link)
This is hilarious!

What I find even more hilarious is the means by which I found out about it:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/05_12_04_corner-archive.asp#084068

(for the uninitiated: the National Review is a famous, 50 year old magazine of politically conservative thought - not exactly the sort of place you'd expect to find D&D commentary)

(Many of you probably would have preferred to remain ignorant. Sorry. It's my nature to leave a trail of psychological destruction wherever I go)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: This is hilarious!
(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 02:58 am UTC (link)
I don't know why you think a politically conservative website's blog wouldn't comment on D&D. D&D in particular and fantasy in general are an important cultural trend and most younger conservatives embrace both. A fair number of contributors to The Corner are 30ish and 40ish white men (in otherwords, they were teenagers when D&D was first becoming popular)...

John J. Miller wrote a piece for D&D's 25th anniversary and he frequently writes reviews of heavy metal albums and fanatsy and sci-fi movies for National Review Online. The latest issue of National Review has Aslan on the cover and has an article by John Miller about Narnia.

My point is, don't fall for the stereo-type that conservatives are dull, old people or religious zealots who think D&D is EEEEVVILLLL. The conservativism of National Review has very little to do with religion.

Conservatism and Gaming are both big tents. Don't assume they don't intersect.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Catholics in Limbo
(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 03:09 am UTC (link)
Oh, you just gotta love them Catholics. They seem to miss the whole point of Jesus, don't you think? Like, maybe, Jesus is responsible for whether kids get to heaven, not a priest? Like maybe John the Evangelist was right when he said Jesus has existed for all time, not starting 2000 years ago? Like maybe God saves people, not the church?

As for the Pope, he's been in Limbo since 1054, when he (and his office) was excommunicated from the Universal church. This is why you don't find him in any of the standard reference works. Unfortunately, you don't hear about any of those other good old heretics, like Marcion and Arius. Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were terrible Marcion-like heretics. I guess it helps to win a war or two, if you're going to tick off the rest of the Church.

Btw, this thread is great. Ygorl, Ssendam, and Ratzinger. Neat!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Catholics in Limbo
(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 06:15 am UTC (link)
The Pope doesn't appear in any "standard reference works"? Whose standard, the Russian Orthodox Church?

You're awesome, guy. Never take off those tinfoil vestments.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]missionista
2005-12-07 03:22 am UTC (link)
THEY CAN'T TAKE AWAY LIMBO!!!!!

As a lapsed Catholic myself, I always really dug the concept of Limbo. THere's Heaven. There's Hell. There's Limbo. It's just how it is.

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(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 06:13 am UTC (link)
Screw Limbo, I'm going to Sigil!

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(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 11:45 am UTC (link)
Me to, I hear it's warm there in the summer. :P

ancient_scars
The turtle moves!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]rfrost
2005-12-07 01:26 pm UTC (link)
Vahalla here I come!

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Quality
(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 02:15 pm UTC (link)
Some good entertainment here.


Raptor Jesus is pleased.

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limbo
[info]freder1ck
2005-12-07 03:22 pm UTC (link)
Great post on D&D!

"Scripturally, the entire concept of limbo or any "in-between" state is completely made from whole cloth."
Limbo is in no way an "in-between" state. If it exists, it is Hell - the denial of the beatific vision. In its day it was seen as just and merciful. Without Christ, the infants cannot go to heaven. But having done no actual sin, they should not be punished with flames and pitchforks.

"And strictly speaking, Catholics don't believe in Original Sin. Something similar, but not actual, 5-Points Original Sin."
That's great! I don't remember Augustine (or Paul!) addressing "5-points original sin." That must be some sort of later innovation, strictly speaking.

"Like maybe God saves people, not the church?"
Hmm. I thought that God saves people through Christians (through the church). Isn't that why folks testify to the Gospel? Or perhaps people think that their preaching adds something to the unique work of Christ? Maybe Christians should say nothing and God will save those whom He chooses.
To the contrary, Jesus Himself says that "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." (Luke 10:16).

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: limbo
(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 03:54 pm UTC (link)
To the contrary, Jesus Himself says that "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." (Luke 10:16).


Or in other words: "You're either with us, or against us." ppphhhht.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: limbo
(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 04:30 pm UTC (link)
"Q. So Christians think that even before you are born you are a f'up and destined for hell? Ouch!

A. Not exactly. And, of course, the pope only speaks for Roman Catholics, not Orthodox or Protestants."

The pope speaks for all christians, as he considers himself as the legitimate heir of the apostle Peter, and thus the leader of all christians... Including Orthodox or Protestants, whom the Catholic church considers as heretics for refusing to acknowledge the pope's leadership.

Note that Orthodox or Protestants would also count as "unbaptised" as the Catholic church makes it rather clear that only its own baptism counts (we catholic even have to acknowledge that in one of our main prayers, the credo).

Which means that, in the Catholic doctrine, Orthodox and Protestants go to limbo if they die in infancy, otherwise they simply go to hell.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: limbo
(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 04:41 pm UTC (link)

This is patently false.

The Catholic Church acknowledges any baptism as valid so long as it uses water and is done "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

From the Decree on Ecumenism from the Second Vatican Council:

The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic
Church- whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning
the structure of the Church--do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes
serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement
is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it
remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are
members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and
so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic
Church.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: limbo
(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 08:54 pm UTC (link)
One has to wonder about people who so blatantly misrepresent the teachings of the Church. Are they just repeating what they've they've been told about Catholics without ever bothering to check to see if the statements are true? Are they just guessing instead of checking to see what the Church really teaches? Or are they deliberately fabricating their charges, like Jack Chick?

Incidentally, the Catholic Encyclopedia (published 1907-1912) article on Limbo devotes several pages to the history of the belief, but at the end refers to "the prevailing Catholic notion of the children's limbo." (v.9 p.259, also on the Web) And the theological manual Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott (2d ed., 1957) says, "Theologians usually assume that there is a special place or state for children dying without baptism which they call limbus puerorum (children's Limbo)." (p.114). Therefore, the proposed change is not as drastic as some people think.

Marty (signed just to help distinguish beteen the anonymi.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: limbo
(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 04:32 pm UTC (link)
Or in other words: "You're either with us, or against us." ppphhhht.

No, it's more like "if you reject us, you're against us", just spelled out in several different scenarios.

(Cover up. Your ignorance is showing).

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: limbo
(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 11:56 pm UTC (link)
[/quote] To the contrary, Jesus Himself says that "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." (Luke 10:16).[/endquote]
This poster claims Jesus defends the dictates of the church.

"I and my father are one." said the christ. Jesus is talking about the divine absolute. If someone _really_ listens to you that person is listening to the divine absolute in you, likewise the reverse for those who "rejects you". This statement is an acknolwedgement of universal divinity not a political statement of tribalism.

Jesus and the chuch parted ways when he through the money-changers out of the temple.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 06:02 pm UTC (link)
"Chrsitians try to believe.....while the Catholics try to believe..."

I object to this; Catholics ARE Christians. They were Christians before any of the book-worshipping Prot sects were invented. They're still Christians in spite of the opinions of the followers of some dude who decided everyone else had been getting it wrong for centuries until he came along to interpret scripture properly. What a lot of hubris is involved in being a Prot, especially in the case of Calvinists! "I'm saved, but you're not. Nyaah!". I think they're in for a bit of a surprise when they croak...

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(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 06:24 pm UTC (link)
hehheh ... that's right! Limbo may be out, but Purgatory ...

I've wondered for a while now if part of a Protestant getting out of Purgatory would be having to confess that the Catholic Church was not wrong in its theology. tee hee!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]redmagus
2005-12-07 08:26 pm UTC (link)
So this begs the question...

just what CR is the Pope?

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(Anonymous)
2005-12-07 10:12 pm UTC (link)
Not that does not beg the question. It raises a question.

See the following:
http://www.roomours.co.uk/ryder3.htm

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2005-12-09 04:57 am UTC (link)
If you're protestant: 666.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]tittergrrl
2005-12-07 10:25 pm UTC (link)
"The weather report for Sigil today calls for scattered Slaadi showers throughout the day for the rest of eternity..."

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[info]calamarain
2005-12-07 11:08 pm UTC (link)
Oh, that is *totally* brilliant :)

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The Pope can't control the Silverhawks!
(Anonymous)
2005-12-08 01:13 am UTC (link)
From this point onward, all mentions of 'Limbo' (the place, rather than the calypso dance) shall refer to the old Silverhawks cartoon.

http://www.tv.com/silverhawks/show/7307/summary.html

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[info]merhawk
2005-12-08 11:07 pm UTC (link)
ROTFLMAO. Brilliant!

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(Anonymous)
2005-12-13 01:08 pm UTC (link)
well done, funny touch
http://allworldviews.blogspot.com/2005/12/do-limbo-not.html

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[info]jaded_waterfall
2006-04-02 03:05 pm UTC (link)
My my, how an innocent little D&D article sparks such heated religious debate! Loved the article btw ... awesome to the max :) Part of me wants to so badly get involved with that argument going on up there, but alas, I fear it may be lost. So I'll sit here and spork all the comments by myself. Woot!

Have fun :)

(Reply to this)


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